Legislature(2005 - 2006)SENATE FINANCE 532

04/21/2006 10:00 AM Senate FINANCE


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10:24:57 AM Start
10:25:58 AM SB305
11:30:34 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Meeting Postponed --
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+= SB 305 OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION TAX TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                            MINUTES                                                                                           
                    SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                  
                         April 21, 2006                                                                                       
                           10:24 a.m.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                              
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Lyda  Green  convened   the  meeting  at  approximately                                                               
10:24:57 AM.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lyda Green, Co-Chair                                                                                                    
Senator Gary Wilken, Co-Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Con Bunde, Vice Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Fred Dyson                                                                                                              
Senator Bert Stedman                                                                                                            
Senator Lyman Hoffman                                                                                                           
Senator Donny Olson                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Also  Attending:  SENATOR  BEN   STEVEN;  SENATOR  GARY  STEVENS,                                                             
SENATOR TOM WAGONER;  DAN DICKINSON, CPA, former  Director of the                                                               
Tax  Division, secured  as  a  consultant by  the  Office of  the                                                               
Governor;  CHERIE NIENHUIS,  Petroleum  Economist, Department  of                                                               
Revenue; Students from Academy Charter School, Palmer, Alaska.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Attending  via Teleconference:  From an  Offnet Location:  ROBERT                                                             
MINTZ,  Assistant Attorney  General, Oil,  Gas &  Mining Section,                                                               
Department of Law                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY INFORMATION                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SB 305-OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION TAX                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
The Committee reviewed the Finance  committee substitute with the                                                               
assistance of the  Department of Law, the  Department of Revenue,                                                               
and a  consultant to  the Office  of the  Governor. The  bill was                                                               
held in Committee.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 305(RES)                                                                                            
     "An Act providing for a production tax on oil and gas;                                                                     
     repealing the oil and gas production (severance) tax;                                                                      
     relating to the calculation of  the gross value at the point                                                               
     of production of oil or gas  and to the determination of the                                                               
     value of oil  and gas for purposes of the  production tax on                                                               
     oil and gas;  providing for tax credits against  the tax for                                                               
     certain   expenditures   and   losses;   relating   to   the                                                               
     relationship of the  production tax on oil and  gas to other                                                               
     taxes, to  the dates those  tax payments and  surcharges are                                                               
     due,  to interest  on overpayments  of the  tax, and  to the                                                               
     treatment of  the tax  in a  producer's settlement  with the                                                               
     royalty owners; relating  to flared gas, and to  oil and gas                                                               
     used  in the  operation of  a  lease or  property under  the                                                               
     production tax; relating  to the prevailing value  of oil or                                                               
     gas  under the  production  tax; relating  to surcharges  on                                                               
     oil; relating  to statements  or other  information required                                                               
     to be filed with or  furnished to the Department of Revenue,                                                               
     to the penalty  for failure to file certain  reports for the                                                               
     tax, to the powers of the  Department of Revenue, and to the                                                               
     disclosure of  certain information required to  be furnished                                                               
     to  the   Department  of  Revenue   as  applicable   to  the                                                               
     administration of  the tax;  relating to  criminal penalties                                                               
     for  violating conditions  governing  access to  and use  of                                                               
     confidential  information relating  to the  tax, and  to the                                                               
     deposit  of  tax  money  collected   by  the  Department  of                                                               
     Revenue;  amending  the  definitions of  'gas,'  'oil,'  and                                                               
     certain other terms for purposes  of the production tax, and                                                               
     as the  definition of the  term 'gas' applies in  the Alaska                                                               
     Stranded   Gas   Development   Act,   and   adding   further                                                               
     definitions;  making  conforming amendments;  and  providing                                                               
     for an effective date."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
This was the fourteenth hearing for this bill in the Senate                                                                     
Finance Committee.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Finance committee substitute, Version 24-GS2052\P, was before                                                                   
the Committee.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green acknowledged the attendance of students from                                                                     
Academy Charter School in Palmer, Alaska.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:25:58 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green stated that the first order of business would be                                                                 
to address a list of questions and concerns [copy on file],                                                                     
specific to Version "P" which were developed by Senator Dyson.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
10:27:35 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DAN DICKINSON, CPA, former Director  of the Tax Division, secured                                                               
as  a consultant  by the  Office of  the Governor,  addressed the                                                               
first question on  Senator Dyson's list. The  question "From what                                                               
may  the taxpayer  deduct  taxes  paid under  AS  43.55?" was  in                                                               
reference to  language in Sec. 3  subsection (c) page 2  lines 20                                                               
through 23 of the Finance committee substitute.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson specified  that language in Sec.  3(c) pertained to                                                               
the State's  income tax Statute,  AS 43.20; specifically  that in                                                               
the "computing  of the  tax under this  chapter, the  taxpayer is                                                               
not entitled  to deduct  any taxes  based on  or measured  by net                                                               
income. … The  taxpayer may deduct the tax paid  and levied under                                                               
AS 43.55",  when calculating their worldwide  income for purposes                                                               
of AS 43.20.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
10:29:16 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson next  addressed the  question of  whether a  comma                                                               
should be  included after the  word "state" in Sec.  5 subsection                                                               
(f)  page 3  line 21.  While doing  so might  be appropriate,  he                                                               
would   advise  allowing   the   bill  drafters   to  make   that                                                               
determination.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
10:29:45 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  advised that the "department"  being referenced in                                                               
Sec. 5 subsection  (f)(1), page 3 line 29, was  the Department of                                                               
Revenue; specifically  that discussions regarding AS  43.55 would                                                               
involve the  Department of Revenue.  Typically, the full  name of                                                               
the Department of  Natural Resources would be  depicted when that                                                               
department   was  being   referred  to   in  the   bill.  Another                                                               
distinction  would  be  that  a   lower  case  "d"  in  the  word                                                               
"department"  would refer  to the  Department of  Revenue and  an                                                               
upper  case  "D"  would  refer   to  the  Department  of  Natural                                                               
Resources.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
10:30:57 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator   Dyson  questioned   whether   delineating  a   specific                                                               
department by either a "d" or an "D" would suffice.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  qualified that  any reference to  AS 43  would be                                                               
specific to the Department of  Revenue. The department referenced                                                               
in relation to another Statute would be identified.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  affirmed.  He  also noted  that  this  issue  was                                                               
further addressed in the Definition section of the bill.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson remarked  that the objective was  to be "consistent                                                               
and clear" in these distinctions.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
10:31:58 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  next addressed  Senator Dyson's  question specific                                                               
to Sec. 5 subsection (f)(B) page 4  lines 5 and 6 of Version "P".                                                               
The question reads as follows.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Increases the royalty tax on gas from Senate Resources                                                                     
     version of 1.5% of the gross for Cook Inlet gas to 7.5% of                                                                 
     gross production for gas anywhere in the state. For non-                                                                   
     Cook Inlet  the increase  is from the  previous 5%  to 7.5%.                                                               
     Isn't  that  a  pretty  big increase  for  Cook  Inlet  gas?                                                               
     Especially  when we  want more  Cook Inlet  gas? It  appears                                                               
     that this change increases the  private royalty tax for gas.                                                               
     Do we really want to increase [the] tax on gas?                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  first approached the  question from  a "technical"                                                               
perspective, as the language in  question should be viewed in the                                                               
"context"  of  Sec.  5  subsection (f)  which  pertained  to  the                                                               
special tax  applied to private  royalty interests in  the State.                                                               
"The  department was  concerned  that, in  those private  royalty                                                               
contracts between an oil company  and a private lessor, you could                                                               
create a  situation where  you would say,  well, let's  say we've                                                               
always had a  12.5 percent interest, but instead,  we're going to                                                               
double it  to a  25 percent  interest, but  then we'll  have some                                                               
mechanism here that we re-equalize  when we calculate our costs."                                                               
As a result, when it was  time to pay the tax, "suddenly, instead                                                               
of  12.5  percent receiving  the  lower  rate, 25  percent  would                                                               
receive the lower rate".                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
10:34:33 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  explained that the  language in Sec.  5 subsection                                                               
(f)(3) page 3  line 29 through page 4 line  2, specified that the                                                               
7.5 percent gas  rate depicted in Sec. 5  subsection (f)(B) would                                                               
be levied were the State  to determine there had been "collusion"                                                               
between a  royalty owner and  a lessee. Otherwise,  the statewide                                                               
tax  on gas  would be  1.667 percent  of the  gross value  at the                                                               
point of production of the gas  as specified in Sec. 5 subsection                                                               
(f)(2) page 3, lines 27 and 28.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  stated that  the special tax  rate applied  to oil                                                               
relative to  private royalty interests  would be five  percent of                                                               
the gross value  at the point of production for  oil as specified                                                               
in Sec.  5 subsection (f)(1)  page 3,  lines 25 through  27. That                                                               
rate would  increase to 22.5  percent of  the gross value  at the                                                               
point  of production  for oil,  were collusion  to occur  in that                                                               
regard.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  pointed  out  that   while  language  in  Sec.  5                                                               
subsection (e) page 3 lines 15  through 19 specified that the tax                                                               
would be 22.5 percent of the  production tax value of the taxable                                                               
oil and  gas, language in Sec.  26 subsection (a) page  18, lines                                                               
10 and 11  qualified that the tax calculation for  gas could only                                                               
consider  "one-third  of   the  gross  value  of   the  point  of                                                               
production  of  the gas  that  is  taxable".  One third  of  22.5                                                               
percent would equate to approximately 7.5 percent.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson next  addressed the question pertaining  to Sec. 7,                                                               
subsection (a) page 5 lines 7-14. The question was as follows:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Lines 7  & 8 say that  overpayments can be applied  to taxes                                                               
     due for a later month. Lines  13 & 14 indicate that interest                                                               
     is paid  on overpayments are  not refunded. Are  we applying                                                               
     taxes to future liabilities or refunding them?                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:37:00 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  specified  that the  Version  "P"  would  provide                                                               
options to  a taxpayer. Were  an overpayment to occur  one month,                                                               
the overpaid  amount could  be applied  to the  following month's                                                               
tax. The  company would not  receive interest on  any overpayment                                                               
during that 30 day period.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  noted  however that,  were  the  carried  forward                                                               
overpayment to exceed the tax  obligation of the following month,                                                               
the company could  apply for a refund. Interest  would be applied                                                               
to that overpayment were the State  unable to refund the money 90                                                               
days after the request was made.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
10:38:18 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Dyson  concluded  therefore   that  interest  would  not                                                               
typically be paid on an overpayment.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
10:38:30 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  affirmed. The State  did not  desire to act  as "a                                                               
bank"  and provide  interest  on  overpayments. Companies  should                                                               
estimate their tax to the best of their abilities.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson  understood however  that the  State would  levy an                                                               
interest penalty were a company to underpay.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson clarified that no  interest would be charged were a                                                               
company to underpay  by five percent. However,  interest would be                                                               
charged on any underpayment beyond that "95 percent threshold".                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson asked Mr. Dickinson  to further explain the process                                                               
through  which   a  company  could  request   an  overpayment  be                                                               
refunded.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:39:40 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson stated  that the  State had  90 days  in which  to                                                               
process a company's request for a  refund, in the case where that                                                               
overpayment  exceeded  the   following  month's  tax  obligation.                                                               
Interest would be paid on  that money after that timeframe. While                                                               
refunds were typically  paid in less than 90  days, extended time                                                               
might  be   required  to  thoroughly   review  a   company's  tax                                                               
calculation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
10:40:36 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
In  response to  a  question from  Senator  Bunde, Mr.  Dickinson                                                               
expressed that the  State would not levy interest  were a company                                                               
to remit between 95 and 100  percent of their monthly tax. Were a                                                               
company to  remit 90  percent of the  amount due,  interest would                                                               
only be  charged on the five  percent beyond the 95  percent. The                                                               
outstanding tax  and the interest  on that five percent  would be                                                               
due by the annual true-up date.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
10:41:34 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ROBERT  MINTZ,  Assistant Attorney  General,  Oil,  Gas &  Mining                                                               
Section, Department  of Law testified via  teleconference from an                                                               
offnet location  and disagreed with  Mr. Dickinson on  one aspect                                                               
of  his  remarks  pertaining  to   a  company's  request  for  an                                                               
overpayment  refund. Language  in Sec.  7 subsection  (a) page  5                                                               
lines 9 and 10 of Version  "P" would indicate that interest would                                                               
not be  paid on that money  unless the refund was  paid more than                                                               
90 days after the annual March 31 true-up date.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson confirmed that Mr. Mintz was correct.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:43:05 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson addressed  the next issue raised  by Senator Dyson.                                                               
The  question was  whether a  comma would  be required  after the                                                               
word "gas" in  Sec.9 subsection (d) page 5, line  25 or after the                                                               
word "lease" on line 26 of that same subsection.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green understood  that the  language in  question would                                                               
not require the addition of  commas. Nonetheless, the issue would                                                               
be further reviewed with the bill drafters.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:44:14 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson disagreed  with  Senator  Dyson's next  conclusion                                                               
that language  in Sec. 10  subsection (e),  page 6, line  3-10 of                                                               
Version  "P" would  delete  "the penalty  currently  found in  AS                                                               
43.55.020(e) for wasteful flaring of gas".                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson stated  the both  the  Senate Resources  committee                                                               
substitute and  Version "P" changed  the existing  three category                                                               
approach to  flared gas "to a  much simpler structure" in  that a                                                               
tax  would  be  levied  on  gas  that  the  Alaska  Oil  and  Gas                                                               
Conservation Committee (AOGCC) considered  "wasted". No tax would                                                               
be levied on gas used to produce  oil and gas. AOGCC could levy a                                                               
separate tax in this regard, aside from this legislation.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz concurred.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Dyson  understood  that  typically taxes  had  not  been                                                               
levied  on  gas flared  in  the  case  of  an emergency  such  as                                                               
equipment failures. He  assumed that gas used  in such situations                                                               
would continue to  be exempt from taxation.  However, AOGCC would                                                               
likely consider  whether the operator  should have  addressed the                                                               
source of the equipment failure in making that determination.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Mintz affirmed  that AOGCC  would  review "several  factors"                                                               
when  determining whether  the flared  gas was  wasteful or  not.                                                               
Emergency   situations   would   be  evaluated   by   established                                                               
guidelines on a case by case basis.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:47:06 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson deferred  to  Mr. Mintz  to  address the  question                                                               
pertaining  to language  in Sec.  12 subsections  (c),(d),(e) and                                                               
(f) on page 8 of Version "P". The question was as follows.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     The CS refers to "person" whereas elsewhere it refers to                                                                   
     "taxpayer", "producer", or explorer. Are we confident that                                                                 
     "person" is satisfactorily defined?                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  noted that  the person reference  was used  in the                                                               
context  of the  entity which  had  purchased the  tax credit  to                                                               
reduce their tax liability.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz  explained that the  term "person" could  serve several                                                               
"functions". In this case it  could be considered "shorthand" for                                                               
referring to  either an explorer  or a producer. In  addition, it                                                               
would  indicate there  being no  limit  on who  could purchase  a                                                               
transferable tax credit certificate. "It  might not be a producer                                                               
or  an explorer",  even  thought the  certificate  would have  no                                                               
value  to anyone  other than  one  of those  entities because  it                                                               
could only be applied to the production tax.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Mintz  would  foresee  however,  there  being  "intermediary                                                               
brokers" who might "buy and sell these certificates".                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  recalled a Senate Resources  Committee hearing on                                                               
this  bill  in  which  the   definition  of  a  person  had  been                                                               
discussed. It  could apply  to a  corporation or  another entity.                                                               
She was  unsure whether the word  defined in State Statute  was a                                                               
widely accepted definition.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz  communicated that  the term  "person" was  included in                                                               
the  listing of  general  applications  definitions under  Alaska                                                               
Statute, Title  1, Sec. 01.10.060. That  Statute defined "person"                                                               
as  a  "corporation,  company,  partnership,  firm,  association,                                                               
organization, business,  trust, or society  as well as  a natural                                                               
person".                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson acknowledged.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:49:48 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson addressed  the question of whether  there should be                                                               
"either  an  'and' or  'or'  after  the  semi-colon" in  Sec.  12                                                               
subsection  (i)(2)(B)  page   10,  line  9.  He   agreed  that  a                                                               
correction  to this  language  was  in order  as  it was  unclear                                                               
whether both or  one of the conditions listed  would be required.                                                               
To this point, he thought the word "and" would be appropriate.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green stated  that this issue would  be further reviewed                                                               
with the bill drafters.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
10:50:26 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  characterized Senator  Dyson's next  suggestion to                                                               
add  the word  "or" after  the semi-colon  in Sec.  24 subsection                                                               
(a)(2) on  page 17 line 6  as being "a substantive  issue", which                                                               
had also been discussed by the Senate Resources Committee.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  stated that  Sec.  24  AS 43.55.150(a)  had  been                                                               
amended, as  specified on page 16  line 28 through page  17, line                                                               
8,  to specify  that the  Department of  Revenue would  recognize                                                               
that "the reasonable  costs of transportation will  be the actual                                                               
costs except  … when" the  three conditions specified in  Sec. 24                                                               
subsection (a)(1)(2)and  (3) were present. These  conditions were                                                               
"when the  parties of the  transportation of  the oil or  gas are                                                               
affiliated; when  the contract for  transportation of oil  or gas                                                               
is not  an arm's length  transaction or is not  representative of                                                               
the market  value of that  transportation; or when the  method of                                                               
transportation of  oil or gas  is not  reasonable in view  of the                                                               
existing alternative methods of transportation".                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson stated  that including the word  "or", as suggested                                                               
by  Senator  Dyson,  would  infer  that  only  one  of  the  tree                                                               
conditions must  be experienced.  The intent  was that  all three                                                               
conditions must  be present. Therefore,  were a word  required to                                                               
clarify that intent, he would suggest that that word be "and".                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Dyson  understood  therefore  that  the  intent  was  to                                                               
require all three of the conditions to be met.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  affirmed. Were further clarity  required, the word                                                               
"and" could be inserted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Dyson  suggested  that  the  bill  drafter  review  this                                                               
language for clarity purposes.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green concurred.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:52:31 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  addressed the  last  of  Senator Dyson's  written                                                               
observations.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Dan  Dickinson's Presentation  of April  20, 2006  re: 5,000                                                               
     BOE allowance. In  Dan Dickinson's first slide  of April 20,                                                               
     2006, related  to Daily  Production of Oil  and Gas  in Cook                                                               
     Inlet, the  slide seems  to indicate  that producers  of oil                                                               
     and gas get two  allowances - one for oil and  one for gas -                                                               
     while  the  producers  of  only  oil or  gas  get  only  one                                                               
     allowance.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
10:54:38 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson referred  the Committee to the April  20, 2006 "PPT                                                               
Studies"  presentation  (copy on  file).  He  explained that  the                                                               
5,000 Barrels  of Oil Equivalency  (BOE) allowance would  allow a                                                               
producer  to exclude  5,000  BOE of  their  daily production.  An                                                               
entity  producing  only  oil  would  be  able  to  exclude  5,000                                                               
barrels. An  entity producing only  gas would be able  to exclude                                                               
30,000 cubic feet of gas daily  which was the equivalent of 5,000                                                               
barrels of oil.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  agreed  that  in   the  effort  to  simplify  the                                                               
material,  the chart  was misleading.  A producer  producing both                                                               
oil and gas would not be  allowed a 5,000 BOE exclusion for each.                                                               
The oil  and gas production would  be combined for a  total 5,000                                                               
BOE exclusion.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson  concluded therefore  that "the energy  content" of                                                               
the production would be measured.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  affirmed that the  measurement would be  the total                                                               
barrel  of oil  equivalent. He  noted  that producer  "f" on  the                                                               
aforementioned chart exampled a combined production scenario.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
In  response  to  a  remark  by  Co-Chair  Green,  Senator  Dyson                                                               
credited his staff for developing the list of questions.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
10:55:50 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
                      PPT Revenue Studies                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
                    Senate Finance Committee                                                                                    
                         April 21, 2006                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
10:56:37 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHERIE  NIENHUIS,  Petroleum  Economist, Department  of  Revenue,                                                               
reviewed the  Department's handout  titled "PPT  Revenue Studies"                                                               
[copy  on  file]  dated  April 21,  2006.  The  presentation  was                                                               
designed to address  questions or requests that  arose during the                                                               
April 20th hearing on this bill.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
[Note: The pages in this document  are not numbered and thus, the                                                               
Senate Finance Committee  Secretary made a notation  on each page                                                               
of the corresponding  timestamp in which that  page was addressed                                                               
in this hearing. General descriptive  information of each page is                                                               
provided in  the body of these  minutes when feasible. A  copy of                                                               
the  handout  can  be  obtained  by  contacting  the  Legislative                                                               
Research Library at (907)465-3808.]                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis  stated that for comparison  purposes, revenues that                                                               
would be expected  under the status quo tax  regime, the Economic                                                               
Limit Factor  (ELF), were  added for  comparison purposes  to the                                                               
graph  titled  "Effect of  Tax  Rate:  Annual Oil  Severance  Tax                                                               
($Millions) Status Quo  and Senate Finance CS with  22.5% and 25%                                                               
Tax Rate at  $20, $40, and $60 per bbl,  Low Volume Scenario" for                                                               
the years 2007 through 2030.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis  "cautioned"  the  Committee  against  focusing  on                                                               
actual  revenues.  Instead the  focus  should  be on  the  trends                                                               
depicted on the graph.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
10:58:55 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  pointed out that  at a  $20 per barrel  oil price,                                                               
the  revenue generated  by  ELF would  exceed  that generated  by                                                               
either  the  22.5  Petroleum Production  Tax  (PPT)  proposed  in                                                               
Version  "P"  or  the  25  percent  PPT  rate  proposed  in  CSSB
305(RES).                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  asked for re-verification that  ELF would generate                                                               
more  revenue  at  a  $20  barrel price  than  the  22.5  percent                                                               
proposed in Version "P".                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis concurred.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde observed  however,  that at  the "more  predicted"                                                               
price  of $40  a  barrel,  the PPT  terms  in  Version "P"  would                                                               
produce "a net gain" over ELF.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis  agreed. The  revenue that would  be generated  in a                                                               
single  year at  higher  prices  under the  PPT  would more  than                                                               
offset  the revenue  generated over  a number  of years  at lower                                                               
prices.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
11:00:02 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  addressed the argument  that lowering  taxes would                                                               
provide  a company  "more money  to invest".  This in  turn would                                                               
encourage "more  production". However,  no one  has been  able to                                                               
provide a  definitive answer  to his question  about the  sort of                                                               
production levels  that could be  guaranteed in that  case. Thus,                                                               
he was curious to the  production level the Department of Revenue                                                               
utilized in  its modeling scenarios; specifically  whether it was                                                               
based on the  theory there would be a production  increase due to                                                               
increased investment or based on no new investment.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis responded that the  Department utilized a variety of                                                               
different  volume scenarios.  The  information  depicted in  this                                                               
chart  was   based  on  the  Department's   Spring  2006  Revenue                                                               
Production Forecast  book. That forecast was  adjusted frequently                                                               
with an  official forecast  was typically  published in  the fall                                                               
and spring  of each  year. A low  volume scenario  would indicate                                                               
that  the  "forecast  doesn't  take  into  account  any  kind  of                                                               
incentives". While  the belief was that  incentives would provide                                                               
additional production,  the Department avoided modeling  that. It                                                               
instead attempted  "to show the  effect of the tax"  without "the                                                               
influence of these other factors that could change".                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
11:01:35 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde understood therefore  that the information depicted                                                               
on  the  Department's  chart  could  be  viewed  as  "worst  case                                                               
scenarios". Continuing,  he asked  how the modeling  would appear                                                               
were no  increased investment to  occur under the  PPT regardless                                                               
of the tax rate.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis noted  that economists  would argue  that increased                                                               
taxes would  decrease production.  Conversely, the hope  was that                                                               
increased  incentives would  increase production.  The Department                                                               
attempted to avoid  modeling "any of those things"  as the effect                                                               
was  to reflect  "the  effect of  the  tax and  how  the tax  and                                                               
credits  work". Thus,  a low  volume scenario  would not  include                                                               
such affects.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis   continued  however  that  "in   the  high  volume                                                               
scenario, we  do include  additional volumes  we believe  will be                                                               
discovered and  produced" in conjunction with  the development of                                                               
a gasline on the North Slope.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ns.  Nienhuis  stated  that  the  majority  of  the  Department's                                                               
efforts were to  the low volume scenario, as it  aligned with the                                                               
data  historically  depicted in  the  Revenue  Forecast book.  In                                                               
addition,  a low  volume scenario  to be  one the  Department was                                                               
"more certain of" at this time.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
11:02:49 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde asserted  that since that producers  were unable to                                                               
provide "a  guarantee of future  investment. … Certainty  is only                                                               
coming from our side, not from the other side".                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
11:03:05 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson noted  that had  the  20 percent  tax, 20  percent                                                               
credit  (20/20 tax/credit)  PPT  terms proposed  in the  original                                                               
bill, SB 305, been depicted on  the chart, its revenue would also                                                               
have been  higher than that  generated by  ELF at $40,  and lower                                                               
than that generated by ELF at a $20 per barrel price.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green voiced  concern that the modeling  did not reflect                                                               
either  the negative  or positive  impact  of the  PPT on  future                                                               
investment in the State.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
11:03:53 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  responded that the  effort behind the  charts "was                                                               
to  show   the  mechanical   effect"  of   the  PPT.   While  the                                                               
relationship between the amount of  the investment and the amount                                                               
of   production  was   undeniable,  the   exact  level   of  that                                                               
relationship was unknown.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson specified  that a  high  volume modeling  scenario                                                               
would reflect  the investment, production, and  revenue situation                                                               
were the  PPT incentives to  work. The low volume  scenario might                                                               
not  reflect the  worst case  scenario, as  even those  forecasts                                                               
would  be unobtainable  were "investment  to dry  up"; continuing                                                               
investment  would   be  required   to  support  the   low  volume                                                               
modelings.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson reiterated  that  the effort  was  to reflect  the                                                               
"mechanical effects  of the PPT"  or how the  "the macro-economic                                                               
efforts of how this would play  out, but directionally I think an                                                               
economist would tell you if  you incent behavior, you'll get more                                                               
of it";  if you tax  behavior, you'll get  less of it".  The hope                                                               
was that  this legislation would  "strike a balance that  will in                                                               
fact create  more investment". Hopefully,  high prices  would not                                                               
result in "misbehavior" that has not been anticipated.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
11:05:21 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair   Green  understood   that  the   expected  decline   in                                                               
production had been factored into the modeling.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  affirmed.  That  decline,  as  projected  in  the                                                               
Revenue Source book, was depicted on the chart.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
11:05:39 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde agreed  that  it would  be  impossible to  predict                                                               
investment and  production levels  as "capital  was a  very fluid                                                               
thing".  There would  be competition  for capital  in the  global                                                               
marketplace regardless "of what we do".                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  stated that  were  the  State  to adopt  a  20/20                                                               
tax/credit,  and everyone  else in  the world  to implement  a 10                                                               
percent  tax /20  percent credit  tax (10/20  tax/credit) regime,                                                               
business would go elsewhere.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
11:06:25 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis next  addressed the  chart titled  "Distribution of                                                               
Future Cash Flows  Under SQ, Gov's Bill, House Res,  Sen Res* and                                                               
Proposed Sen Fin  CS at 22.5/25 and at 25/25,  FY 2007-2016". One                                                               
graph  line on  the  chart reflected  a  hypothetical 25  percent                                                               
tax/25  percent credit  (25/25 tax/credit)  scenario and  another                                                               
reflected  the   proposal  being   furthered  in  the   House  of                                                               
Representatives committee  substitute CSSB  488(RES). Due  to its                                                               
Progressivity provisions,  the House  graph line  markedly sloped                                                               
upward and  surpassed the Government  Take ratio of  Version "P"s                                                               
22.5 percent  tax / 25  percent credit (22.5/25 tax/credit)  at a                                                               
$50 barrel  price, as well  as the hypothetical  25/25 tax/credit                                                               
at the $70 barrel price level.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis noted that the  asterisk on the chart indicated that                                                               
the  Progressivity  tax  was  deducted  only  once  in  the  CSSB
304(RES)  calculation depicted  on  this chart  even though  that                                                               
bill  allowed it  to  be deducted  twice.  The Progressivity  tax                                                               
would not be deductible under Version "P".                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
11:08:28 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis stated  that this  chart  was an  extension of  the                                                               
previous  chart;  the exception  being  that  the previous  chart                                                               
ended at  the year 2016 while  this chart continued to  2030. The                                                               
result  was "a  little higher  distribution of  cash flow  to the                                                               
Government".  The Government  Take  percentages  relating to  the                                                               
original 20/20  tax/credit presented in  SB 305 did  not increase                                                               
in alignment with the other  PPT proposals because its transition                                                               
and  allowance time  frame were  "shorter  term mechanisms.  They                                                               
lose their affect over time".                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis  noted that  SB  305's  Government Share  was  also                                                               
affected  by the  fact that  the $73  million standard  deduction                                                               
included in that bill would continue through 2030.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
11:10:05 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis   next  explained  the  chart   titled  "Cumulative                                                               
Severance  Tax Revenues  under Governor's  Bill  as Written,  and                                                               
with  22.5/25, 22.5/20,  and 25/20,  Low Volume  Scenario 2006  -                                                               
2030".  This  chart was  updated  to  include in  its  Cumulative                                                               
Revenue comparisons  how the original  bill would perform  were a                                                               
22.5 tax  and 25 percent  credit applied to  it at $20,  $40, and                                                               
$60 per  barrel prices. In  addition, the cumulative  revenues of                                                               
ELF were also depicted.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
11:10:55 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis  stated that the slide  titled "Cumulative Severance                                                               
Tax Revenues under Governor's Bill  as Written, and with 22.5/25,                                                               
22.5/20, and  25/20, High Volume  Scenario 2006 -  2050" depicted                                                               
how  the original  bill,  SB 305,  would  perform at  alternative                                                               
tax/credit rates under a high  volume scenario. The volumes would                                                               
be expected to double. She  reiterated that since the High Volume                                                               
scenario  also  assumed  there  would  be  a  gas  pipeline,  the                                                               
upstream  costs  of  the  gas   pipeline  were  included  in  the                                                               
calculations.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
11:11:23 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  asked  for  confirmation  that  the  high  volume                                                               
scenario   would  generate   approximately  twice   the  revenues                                                               
generated in a low volume scenario.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis affirmed.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde understood  that the  additional investment  being                                                               
sought by  the PPT  would serve  "to slow  the decline".  To that                                                               
point, a  high volume scenario  would slow the decline  whereas a                                                               
low volume scenario would depict "maximum decline".                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis reiterated  that a number of  things accompanied the                                                               
high volume scenario forecast; the  development of a gas pipeline                                                               
would alter  the production rate  in Prudhoe Bay; while  it would                                                               
continue to decline, the life  of the field would be "prolonged".                                                               
In  addition, the  Point  Thomson field  would  come online  were                                                               
there   a  gas   pipeline.   There  would   also  be   additional                                                               
opportunities for  oil exploration  and thus  it was  likely that                                                               
more oil would be discovered.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  asked whether  the  information  depicted on  the                                                               
chart was limited to oil or reflected oil and gas BOE.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis  qualified  that the  chart  solely  reflected  oil                                                               
revenues.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis also  noted  that the  high  volume scenario  chart                                                               
depicted  cumulative revenues  over a  longer timeframe  than the                                                               
low  volume  scenario  chart.  The  high  volume  scenario  chart                                                               
depicted revenues through  the year 2050; 20 more  years than the                                                               
low volume chart.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
11:13:08 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  qualified that a  large percent of  the additional                                                               
revenue  projected in  the High  Volume scenario  was due  to the                                                               
"additional time period".                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator Hoffman  pointed out  that in  order to  accurately gauge                                                               
the  revenue the  State would  receive  under SB  305 at  various                                                               
tax/credit percents  and barrel  prices, the amount  generated by                                                               
ELF, which was  also depicted on the graph,  should be subtracted                                                               
from each revenue scenario.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson affirmed.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator Hoffman noted  that the cumulative revenues  shown on the                                                               
chart were for a 44 year period.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis stated that was correct.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Olson,  noting the significant increase  in revenues that                                                               
occurred between the  $20 to $40 barrel price and  the $40 to $60                                                               
barrel  price, asked  whether  that trend  would  be expected  to                                                               
continue as prices increased from $60 to $80 per barrel.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  pointed out that,  in addition to  the significant                                                               
jump in  revenue that  was experienced  as prices  increased from                                                               
$20  to $40  to  $60,  the revenues  within  each price  grouping                                                               
increased  as   the  tax/credit   percents  applied  to   SB  305                                                               
increased. It would be expected that  the revenue trend at an $80                                                               
per  barrel  price  "would  be  dramatically  higher"  than  that                                                               
experienced between  $40 and  $60. The  revenue relative  to each                                                               
tax/credit  percent within  the $80  grouping would  continue the                                                               
trend experienced at the other price levels.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson stated  that because the revenues  depicted on this                                                               
chart  were based  on  the provisions  of SB  305,  there was  no                                                               
Progressivity element. The changes  would be "even more dramatic"                                                               
were the  chart to reflect the  Progressivity provisions included                                                               
in the House and Senate bills.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
11:16:33 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis  addressed  the   final  chart  titled  "Cumulative                                                               
Severance Tax with  Estimated Capital Costs and  with Double Est.                                                               
Capital  Costs  ($B) 2006-2030,  Low  Volume  Scenario". She  had                                                               
taken the  initiative to develop  this chart because  she thought                                                               
the  information would  be of  interest  to the  Committee as  it                                                               
showed how increased capital costs could affect revenues.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis  explained that  the Department's  modeling forecast                                                               
indicated that capital  costs in 2007 would  be approximately one                                                               
billion dollars.  The severance  taxes that would  be experienced                                                               
under the  provisions of  SB 305,  CSSB 305(RES),  CSHB 488(RES),                                                               
and  Senate committee  substitute Version  "P" based  on the  one                                                               
billion dollars in capital costs, were reflected on the chart.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis noted that the  severance tax that would be expected                                                               
under the  status quo  ELF tax  regime was  also depicted  on the                                                               
chart.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis  explained that  in  order  to view  how  increased                                                               
capital might  affect severance tax  revenue, she  "doubled those                                                               
capital  costs". Thus,  the severance  taxes  associated at  that                                                               
level  under the  four bill  versions were  also depicted  on the                                                               
chart. She  noted that while  an increase in capital  costs would                                                               
likely result  in an  increase in  production, the  severance tax                                                               
calculations  on the  chart were  based on  the production  level                                                               
expected at the one billion dollar capital cost level.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis pointed out that  the severance taxes paid under any                                                               
of the PPT bill provisions  would be higher than that experienced                                                               
under ELF when barrel prices ventured beyond a $40 price.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
11:18:53 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson used  the  information depicted  on  the chart  to                                                               
respond to a question posed  earlier by Senator Bunde. "The point                                                               
is, if  our forecast is  wildly optimistic, and what  is required                                                               
is a huge influx of capital, and  lets just say a doubling of the                                                               
capital,  then" hopefully  the provisions  of the  bill would  be                                                               
successful in incentivizing companies  to expend more capital. In                                                               
that event, "revenue figures would  shift" upwards as depicted in                                                               
the chart. He  noted that the chart only portrayed  the effect of                                                               
an increase in  capital costs as the production  levels that were                                                               
considered  were  those  that would  accompany  the  one  billion                                                               
dollar capital cost level.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson noted  that "the  amount of  investment a  company                                                               
makes is irrelevant to the taxes  they pay under the status quo".                                                               
The  only affect  investment would  have  under ELF  would be  in                                                               
regards to how it might affect production.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
11:19:52 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde   understood  therefore   that,  were   this  bill                                                               
successful   in  creating   "a  successful   reaction  from   the                                                               
industry",  … there  would be  increased" investment.  This would                                                               
"maintain current levels of production".                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  thought that the severance  tax revenues generated                                                               
by  the  various bill  versions  at  the forecasted  one  billion                                                               
dollar  capital   cost  level   would  be  "the   more  realistic                                                               
projections", as he doubted investments would double.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
11:20:28 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  deemed the  area between  the projections  for the                                                               
one  billion  dollar capital  cost  level  and the  $2.1  billion                                                               
dollar capital cost area to be  "the zone in which we'll actually                                                               
be operating".                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
11:20:39 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  asked how  a delay  in the  effective date  of the                                                               
bill would affect revenues.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
11:20:55 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  referred the  Committee  to  the "Effective  Date                                                               
Change  From 04/01/2006  to  07/01/2006 at  $60  per Barrel  Oil"                                                               
chart that had  been included in his April 20,  2006 "PPT Revenue                                                               
Studies" presentation [copy on file].                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
11:21:33 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  concluded that  the cost of  delaying the  bill by                                                               
three  months could  be calculated  by dividing  the annual  $418                                                               
million revenue  projection on  that chart  by one  third. Noting                                                               
that the  price of  oil on April  20, 2006 was  $70 a  barrel, he                                                               
noted  that  changing barrel  prices  would  affect that  revenue                                                               
figure.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  calculated  therefore  that  the  loss  would  be                                                               
approximately $125  million each month the  implementation of the                                                               
bill was delayed.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson thought that the  cost would likely be $140 million                                                               
per month.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
11:22:41 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  asked for further  discussion about  whether the                                                               
cost of addressing  oil spills would be  deductible under Version                                                               
"P". The language  pertaining to Version "P" as  presented on the                                                               
"Comparison of PPT  Bill Versions - Highlights"  handout [copy on                                                               
file]  discussed on  April 12,  2006 was  confusing as  it stated                                                               
"yes, if on lease (not precluded)".                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
11:23:16 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.   Dickinson  apologized   that  the   information  had   been                                                               
abbreviated  to a  point that  caused  confusion. Currently,  the                                                               
costs  associated with  a downstream  catastrophic  oil spill  of                                                               
100,000 barrels  or more  or one  that had  been declared  by the                                                               
Governor as such  due to such things as  life/safety issues would                                                               
not be  deductible in the calculation  of the gross value  at the                                                               
point of production.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson  advised that  this Statute  specifically addressed                                                               
marine or  inland waterway  spills such as  the Exxon  Valdez oil                                                               
spill.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson stated  that this  language was  incorporated into                                                               
the deduction for net value in  the CSHB 488(RES) PPT bill. Thus,                                                               
a catastrophic  oil spill that  dumped more than  100,000 barrels                                                               
of oil  into an  inland waterway would  not be  deductible. There                                                               
would have  been no prohibition  on those spill expenses  were it                                                               
to occur on land.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Dickinson  stated  that  the  current  prohibition  was  not                                                               
included in  either CSSB 305(RES)  or Version "P".  Therefore the                                                               
costs  associated with  "reacting  to  an oil  spill  … would  be                                                               
considered an ordinary and necessary cost of doing business".                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
11:25:52 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken   understood  therefore  that   current  Statute                                                               
contained   a  "barrel   limit  and   a  geographic   qualifier".                                                               
Continuing,  he   directed  attention   to  Sec.   26  subsection                                                               
(d)(2)(F) beginning on  page 20, line 31. This  language reads as                                                               
follows.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
               (F) costs arising from fraud, willful misconduct,                                                                
     or negligence;                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken   asked  whether  the  costs   of  addressing  a                                                               
catastrophic  oil spill  would be  disallowed were  the State  to                                                               
prove the spill resulted from willful misconduct or negligence.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dickinson deferred to Mr. Mintz with the Department of Law.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken stated  that  this question  was  prompted by  a                                                               
recent spill caused by a company's negligence.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
11:26:57 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz stated  that one must consider that "the  list of items                                                               
that are expressly not deductible"  under Sec. 26 subsection Sec.                                                               
43.55.160(d)(2)  beginning on  page 20  line 23  through page  21                                                               
line 20 "was not intended to  be an exhaustive list". The listing                                                               
included only  "items that  as a matter  of policy  a Legislature                                                               
would be declaring  are not deductible whether or  not they might                                                               
otherwise be direct costs, they  would be deductible". Therefore,                                                               
the exclusion of an item from  that list "does not mean that it's                                                               
necessarily deductible". The "general  answer" would be that "the                                                               
cost of cleaning up or other  costs associated with a spill would                                                               
be deductible if  they are direct, ordinary,  and necessary costs                                                               
of  exploring  for,  developing  or producing  oil  or  gas,  and                                                               
otherwise they are not deductible".                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Mintz communicated  that neither  CSSB 305(RES)  nor Version                                                               
"P" addressed  this issue "any  more than that". Thus,  the State                                                               
would be required  to address the issue on a  case by case basis.                                                               
Things  such   as  "industry  practices  under   joint  operating                                                               
agreements", as  specified in  the bill,  would be  considered in                                                               
each determination.  Were the  issue not  addressed in  the bill,                                                               
then the department would be  required to "make its determination                                                               
based … on the meaning  of direct, ordinary and necessary". Since                                                               
this  issue is  not specifically  addressed in  Version "P",  the                                                               
outcome would be unpredictable.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
11:28:51 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken   asked  whether  the  inclusion   of  the  word                                                               
"negligence" in  Sec. 26 subsection (d)(2)(F)  would provide "the                                                               
latitude"  that   would  be  required  for   "the  department  to                                                               
determine whether its deductible".                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mintz affirmed  that that language would  "definitely imply …                                                               
that if  negligent conduct or omissions  led to a spill  which in                                                               
turn led to costs, then that could be excluded".                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
There  be no  further  questions, Co-Chair  Green requested  that                                                               
Members submit their amendments today.  The intent was to discuss                                                               
members'  and  bill  drafter   amendments  during  the  afternoon                                                               
Committee hearing.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
In response  to a question  from Senator Stedman,  Co-Chair Green                                                               
expressed the desire to finalize the bill tomorrow.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  asked whether the Legislature's  PPT consultant,                                                               
Econ One  Research, Inc, had  provided any  information pertinent                                                               
to Version "P".                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green stated that no  information had been received from                                                               
Econ One.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
The bill was HELD in Committee.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Lyda Green adjourned the meeting at 11:30:34 AM                                                                      

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